The Ivory Tower

This is a place for me to think out loud (or 'on paper') all things that are interesting me, and to comment on things I want to remember. Naming my blog the Ivory Tower is a joke on the popular notion that philosophy and intelligence are something beyond the common man, somehow above the 'mean' act of living as a human. Rand's refutation of this is what immediately drew me to her. Feel free to introduce yourself.

7.15.2005

The Existence of God

I am almost entirely convinced that god does not exist. Almost. I am an atheist and have been for a year, so this may seem a belated statement to some...

But god was not a part of my decision to break from Catholicism, and by extension - religion. I thought quite a bit about the matter once I became old enough to seriously consider it. After years of casual pondering, a short while before my confirmation, I came to the conclusion that 1.) I don't 'believe' in god (i.e. I have no faith in him, no trust), and 2.) the metaphysical existence of god was beyond my comprehension and concern. But I believed in morality, right and wrong; so despite my abandonment of the concept of 'god', I still wanted religion.

I went through my confirmation with every intention of treating religion like a philosophy with lots of fairy tales. It was my job to sort through Catholicism and pull out the morals from the fairy tales, to find the essence of what is good. Religion was my ethics. I turned to science for everything else; the scientific method was epistemology, which was used to discover the metaphysics of the universe. That was about as sophisticated as I got at age 16 and I was happy with it. I wasn't entirely satisfied with my catholic ethics, but was content to settle down and unravel the whole thing.

The more I read the more critical I became of certain religious doctrines. But it wasn't until I read Ayn Rand that I questioned the innate goodness of religion, and by that time the only thing holding up my faith in religious ethics was my own rationalizations. These I promptly discarded after an emotional and somewhat dramatic experience, which I won't go into.

I have hesitated to call myself atheist, except out of expedience, because I still did not have any opinion or concern over the existence of god. After an argument with a friend about the nature of atheism (which I generally considered to be a form of idiocy) I decided to revisit 'god' and figure out the second part of the mystery.

The problem with this is the definition of god. There are two fundamentally differing ideas of what god actually is. First was the pagans, to them gods were metaphysical facts; literally super-humans. They existed in the same way the stars exist; obvious, but still incomprehensible to the technologically deficient humans.

Then there was a revolution and many pagan gods became one True God (Plato style). Many historians consider this revolution in terms of the number of god (i.e. gods vs. God, plural vs. singular). I think this misses the very key change in the definition of what god is. Suddenly god became something not of this world, literally super-natural, above or beyond the natural universe. Nowadays, god isn't described as something that humans don't understand, it is something humans can't understand. Any modern priest will balk when you ask him to point to god, because you can't point to god. God literally doesn't exist as we know existence; he is of a 'higher' existence.

Well, it's obvious that the latter 'god' doesn't exist; it is built into his definition. There is no other plane, realm, or universe; higher or otherwise. The universe is everything that exists. Everything. If you define god as not a part of the universe; as something that you can't, by its very nature, identify then it doesn't exist.

And that's all very well and good, but what if you define god as something that is in the universe, that does exist, that you can point to and identify and say "yep, that right there is god alright" as the pagans did. Then he could exist and we simply haven't yet devised a way to find him.

Now 'could' does not mean 'does', it means 'could'. That's what makes the former so easy to deal with and the latter so hard. With the former god, by definition, does not exist, but the latter is too open-ended for my comfort.

The only thing that I see resolving the issue is the idea that what exists must be proven to exist. In other words, (and I hate to divert a philosophical discussion towards the imaginary, but it demonstrates the point) just because one can't actually prove that pink unicorns don't exist doesn't mean that they do. The old cliché, "just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there" is wrong and misleading. We can't see air, but we can detect it; I haven't ever seen a million dollars at once, but I could; I have never seen nor detected god in any manner, but could I? That begs, how would I? I don't know. My gut reaction is to say that it's impossible and therefore god can't exist. But how it is impossible, I can't say.

Any ideas, I'm kind of stumped.

14 Comments:

At Friday, July 15, 2005 11:45:00 PM, Blogger benshlomo said...

Just one detail - your definition of the universe as "everything that exists" isn't quite accurate in spiritual terms. The universe, as we're discussing it now, is "everything physical that exists". God isn't physical, at least by the Jewish definition.

 
At Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:19:00 AM, Blogger Amanda Carlson said...

adding 'physical' is redundant. What exists that isn't physical? What are it's characteristics?

My point behind this post is to say that if god isn't 'physical' then he can't exist. But what if god is physical. Well, then I don't know.

 
At Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:22:00 AM, Blogger junebee said...

I don't even get that far into it. If there was a god who was so benevolent and loving, children wouldn't die of cancer, floods wouldn't wash away people's homes, and 9.11 would have never happened.

 
At Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:28:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hmmm interesting comment. It's sounds like something neichze would have said, he was an atheist himself. I don't follow any kind of religion myself. When religion is in the media or the news it always seems to be the bad stuff.

http://mizubara.blogspot.com/

Mike Zwarts

 
At Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:28:00 AM, Blogger Amanda Carlson said...

Well, that's assuming god is benevelent. Or wise. If he exists, he could just as well be a malevolent prick.

 
At Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:30:00 AM, Blogger Amanda Carlson said...

I am not familiar with Neichze. Could you explain?

 
At Saturday, July 16, 2005 7:03:00 PM, Blogger Greg said...

What you are talking about is the conundrum of faith itself. There is no such thing as not having faith- it is what you have faith in. There is no way to prove God, and no way to disprove Him. But nevertheless, one must choose, and that is what their faith will be in. If there were a way to prove or disprove Him, why would there be a need for faith at all?

You and I are on different sides of a choice of faith. I have faith that God exists, and you have faith that He doesn't exist. I can see how you could come to your conclusion, I just came to a different one.

 
At Saturday, July 16, 2005 7:07:00 PM, Blogger Greg said...

Sorry I didn't read your announcement about visitors before I made the comment. If you want to know about me you can go to my blog at kgbandersons.blogspot.com - I am a new father and have a week old son, so pardon all the pictures.

 
At Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:24:00 AM, Blogger Amanda Carlson said...

"There is no such thing as not having faith- it is what you have faith in."

Can you define 'faith'? I ask because I define faith as 'granting the truth of a thing without, or in opposition to, proof' and any conversation we could have would be pointless if we couldn't even agree upon that.

So, I just want to make sure that you understand that, by my definition, you are asserting that humans are incapable of aquiring knowledge (the opposite of faith). The entire history of mankind is proof against your assertion. Does a man discover how to build a skyscraper or move a mountain on faith? Man knows by reason, not faith. I wish to know if god exists.

But, lets humor the notion for a bit and simply consider the matter of your post, discounting human history. How, then, do you propose a man make the decision you're referring to without the use of reason? How do you choose between having faith in god versus faith in non-god? On faith? Does one flip a coin; heads - I beleive in god, tails - I don't?

This is exactly what I was referring to in my post when I said that there was a revolution in the way we veiw god. You say that there is no way to prove/disprove god. If that is so then god cant't exist, it would be metaphysically impossible. I have already explained this in my post, please reread it if that isn't clear. But what if it is possible to prove/disprove god and we simply don't know how. What then? That is where I am stuck.

"If there were a way to prove or disprove Him, why would there be a need for faith at all?"

Indeed, there isn't.

I would just like to note that you are incorrect when you say that mine is a conundrum of faith. I have resolved this years ago. I have no faith. I want no faith. And I think people who indulge in such things are morally weak, because they take no responsibility for their thoughts and actions. The man who has faith defaults on morality just like the murderer who claims 'I was just following orders'. (Morals being defined as that which is necessary and proper to live as humans)

ps. you have an adorable son; beautiful bright eyes.

 
At Wednesday, July 20, 2005 3:13:00 PM, Blogger John Stark said...

"The only thing that I see resolving the issue is the idea that what exists must be proven to exist. In other words, (and I hate to divert a philosophical discussion towards the imaginary, but it demonstrates the point) just because one can't actually prove that pink unicorns don't exist doesn't mean that they do."

This hits on the fact that you can't prove a negative, which I won't go into here, but relevant to this discussion is the role of arbitrary statements such as "pink unicorns exist on Neptune" or "God exists".

An arbitrary statement is neither true nor false; it is literally random noise and must be dismissed as such. It has no relationship to reality because the concepts aren't used as abstractions grounded in reality, they are literally used as the sounds of words that normally would have a meaning, usually with the hope of the listener trying to apply meaning to the sounds, and then, because there is no way to judge the arbitrary declaration, with the hope of the listener abandoning their independent judgement and just taking the declaration as true, on faith.

 
At Wednesday, July 20, 2005 3:26:00 PM, Blogger John Stark said...

By the way, I would highly recommend reading Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology if you haven't already.

 
At Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:28:00 AM, Blogger Amanda Carlson said...

Hello John~

I think you're right. When I first came upon Peikoff's (fairly sure it was Peikoff, correct me if I'm wrong) 'arbitrary statements' I thought he meant arbitrary as in 'unimportant'. Of which I was in total agreement at the time.

So, thank you, I'll look at that again.

I tried to read ITOE last November, but I could hardly follow past the first page. I hate simply reading words if I can't understand them, so I decided to start smaller and work my way up to it. I am currently reading OPAR, which is easier to understand.

 
At Sunday, March 08, 2009 4:55:00 PM, Blogger FretBuzz said...

The only reason why people feel god exists is to feel protected and secure from everything harmful that emerges out from our lives. People in ancient times started off with a inner power of the universe called god, just because they needed a power stronger than the normal human to believe as the creator of everything.
As life evolved man decided to create a god (higher power) so they could differentiate between whats wrong and whats right, these people were very ignorant on life and its basic strengths.
Later, man decided to create a power controlling everything in the universe just so that they could teach the values of life but sad but true there were more than one god created due to enmity
between each other.
This enmity continued and the basic reason for the creation of the word ''god'' was changed and turned completely opposite from teaching good values into destruction and war between army's of two different types of gods as the head.
Faith today is only for the better of everybody, but faith to has an opposite reaction.
There is no God, only darkness and brightness in this world of ours. Life should be experienced the way it is and the way it should be.
Religion is just a belief to replace the bad values in life with the good values but i surely believe that in this revolution why cant we create a better way of life and replace religion with just good values because religion in the end is considered by many as just a fight for power and greatness as you're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend.

 
At Monday, April 23, 2012 2:33:00 AM, Blogger tomy123 said...

Hey im a christian and i would like to say some things regarding this post. Things like people dieing, 9.11 , cancer etc, you cant blame or ask God to stop that? I believe God is real and that hes not gonna stop everything bad in this world as there is going to be sin in this world isnt there? you see God gave us a 'free will' to do whatever we want. he gave us the choice to follow him or to follow whatever you choose... i think because of the sin in this world, people will still die of cancer, there still will be terrorist attacks but you cant look to god everytime that happens and be like 'why didnt you do anything'? and these horrible things can happen to all of us, to an atheist, to a catholic , christian anyone?! God says in the bible (the christian book) that you will die in this world but through him you can have eternal life meaning everlasting. so if you follow him it means you can go to a better place (heaven) after you die in this life. but im not the stuck up christian that just is all about what i beleieve in and doesnt give a stuff about what you beleieve in thinking your all wrong. no way! ive been reading your comments and i partly understandwhat your talking about and your frustration and confusion.

 

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